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The Lions offense looks really out of sync and Stafford is missing badly so far. Do they think they can get down by 17 against the Packers and come back?
by Corey S. (not verified) :: Thu, 11/24/2011 - 2:33pm
Is anyone else confused by what the Packers are trying to do? They're not even threatening to run the football. They've had a bunch of 2nd and 3rd and 1s, and have come out in shotgun formation each time. The Lions can be run on, I have no clue what McCarthy is doing. He has generally been a very good play caller (for three quarters), but not today.
Lions just got hit with an unspeakably terrible pass interference call. The defensive back looked back for the ball, didn't touch Jennings until the ball had bounced off Jennings' hands, and still was penalised for, I don't know, breathing wrong or something.
Is coverage actually allowed in the current NFL rules?
Then a couple of plays later, apparently it's perfectly fine for Jordi Nelson to block a defensive back out of the play while Rodgers is passing the ball to Jennings. Touchdown Packers. Horrid officiating.
I saw hand on jersey, and just now Aikman replayed it. Didn't affect the play though, and wasn't anywhere near as interfere-y as the earlier contact on 3rd and 1 that had been allowed.
The refs are as visible in this game as Ron Winter's crew usually is. I don't like it.
And now, of course, there is one of the worst roughing the passer calls I've ever seen. These officials are doing their damndest to make this game unwatchable.
Any foul that is penalised with an automatic first down on defense ought to be penalised with loss of down on offense. Examples: Illegal hands to the face. Holding. Pass Interference.
As Aikman said, that's a terrible roughing the passer call.
How many penalties have been called (including offsetting penalties and declined penalties)? Are the officials getting a commission for each flag they throw?
Every other tackle by the Pack seems to involve trying to wrestle the runner down by their head or neck. I'm not saying it's either illegal or that dirty but it is horrendous technique.
As much as the Lions are getting screwed by the refs, they're also committing their fair share of self-inflicted wounds. I feel the way I do when I'm watching the Jets: there's good (maybe even a lot of it) totally offset by stupidity and self-immolation. Make the field goal. Don't turn the ball over. Manage to block the pass rush without holding. The Pack do these things, generally. And they're 10-0.
by Emptyeye (not verified) :: Thu, 11/24/2011 - 8:47pm
When this happened, to paraphrase a maligned-around-these-parts sportswriter, if I had a notebook, I would have written "Game Over" in it. And lo, it would have come to pass.
Seriously...if you are still getting that pissed off and stomping on people b/c some O-Lineman is cutting you and/or employing questionable tactics at the NFL level, then you are sending a signal to everyone to do the same.
This would matter if they weren't the 29th ranked pass defense vs running backs going into the game. Even with their starting LB's they suck at covering RB and TE (30th in the league against TE).
They are bad, they have been bad all year, they are worse with back-ups.
I was chatting with friends about how Francois couldn't cover any one either when he made an acrobatic pick - Smith at least seemed to be good at tackling people
Brandon Marshall just made a play. Beat Newman off the line, the pass is underthrown, Marshall slows down, Newman knows he's in trouble and absolutely mauls Marshall who makes the catch in the endzone anyway.
Put that guy on national TV and throw him a deep ball.
The reason, you ask? To many Cowboys were on the field. So god damn what? You are trading a timeout for 2 yards of field position. The chance of Miami missing the kick twice? Around .25 percent. One timeout for a gain of .0075 expected points. Yeesh.
by Joshua Northey (not verified) :: Fri, 11/25/2011 - 12:39am
No you are not alone. I think a jet like that runs maybe $5,000/hour in fuel alone. Then you have the pilot and ground personnel, general wear and tear, etc.
But the defense budget is so big things like this are rounding errors on rounding errors.
It is probably all buried in the recruitment budget somewhere if they are doing their accounting correctly.
This is the second time the 49ers have faced a Ryan style defense and it's the second time the pass protection has utterly collapsed. I really hope that John is going to give John some tips after the game. The 49er pass rush has also been non existent since getting some pressure on the opening two drives.
I can't see the niners winning this one unless something amazing happens.
I was wondering about the experience level of Greg Roman and whatsisname, the OL coach, after the game. Tim Drevno. I was emailing with FO charter Chris, who does Ravens games, and he seemed to feel that the various Ravens blitzes showcased Pagano's creativity. Seemed to me that the Ravens just dusted off some "standard" zone blitzes and deceptive pressures, either left over from Rex Ryan's playbook or maybe run by the scout team during any of the 10 Pittsburgh weeks they've prepped for over the last few years, and the Niners just weren't prepared for that stuff.
Do the Niners not see that stuff very often? Maybe the coaching staff just didn't have time to teach for it, given no offseason and a short training camp.
by Paul M (not verified) :: Thu, 11/24/2011 - 11:46pm
I'll laugh all the way to Indianapolis. But I wouldn't be shocked because this metric has obviously run up against the exception that may or may not prove the rule. Packers have all the defense they need, when they need it. How many other defenses in the league have faced the opposition late in the 4th Quarter, protecting a 7 pt lead or less, something like 9-10 consecutive times now, and STOPPED them every time?? Stick that up your DVOA, folks.
Score was 24-0 after 3rd INT, and after that they allowed a semi-garbage TD, and then a total garbage TD to once again allow their opponents to exceed 400 YDS. Without either of their starting inside LBs, but never mind the replacement got a pick. Fact is they are the most opportunistic defense in the league. And today the pass rush was greatly improved and direct cause of many of the Lions' offensive penalties. And when the game was decided, they turned off the gas. When Rodgers and Co. had an uncharacteristically poor first half, what did the Packers defense do? Pitch a shutout and produce the turnover that led to the lone score.
They are as good as they need to be, and that will ultimately be another SB championship.
by Paul M (not verified) :: Fri, 11/25/2011 - 12:28am
If there is a way to filter in DVOA for the two meaningless TDs the Lions scored today, and all the meaningless yards the Packers allowed, then I'm all ears. I suspect, however, that this game will look in DVOA like a close Packer victory, when in fact once their offense got untracked it was no contest.
And I am simply making the case that this is a defense that is continually as good as it needs to be-- dating back to the 6 games won in last year's SB run and now through the 11 this year. The interceptions are a skill set that is hugely impactful on nearly every game this team plays. The fact that as of this morning the 49ers had almost the same odds as winning the Super Bowl as the Packers is a joke. As is the ranking of Houston ahead of GB in DVOA. This team takes the best shots from every team on their schedule every week, a condition that will only heighten as they approach 16-0. I respect Aaron and the FO staff for attempting to quantify the game in heretofore unknown or underappreciated ways-- but no system is perfect, and this one has been underselling the Packers for nearly a year now.
by RichC (not verified) :: Mon, 11/28/2011 - 4:01pm
The problem with this, is that its entirely possible that garbage time isn't predictive in the case of the team winning, but is in the case of the team that is losing.
Aaron doesn't give us any info on what he actually did though, or how he defines garbage time, etc. So the statement is pretty much useless.
And I am simply making the case that this is a defense that is continually as good as it needs to be
No, you aren't, you're looking for validation that the sports team you support is better than the other teams, in an apparently desperate attempt to validate your self-worth. You aren't alone in this - you have millions of brothers, but, y'know, self-awareness.
Your argument - as good as it needs to be - is true and self-evident, as long as your definition of need is posting the win for the team. This is argument after the fact. You're right, but it's not particularly interesting. DVOA, for it's flaws, attempts to both explain why, and predict what next. DVOA may well be less correct, but it's far, far, far more interesting than simply reposting the win-loss records for every team
by Paul M (not verified) :: Fri, 11/25/2011 - 11:18am
"simply reposting the win-loss records"..... Yep-- 17 straight Ws. Only happened a couple of times in the past 20 years, right?? Only a few times in the 20+ years before that?? You think it might cause people to wonder why and dig beneath an obvious first level? My supposedly "desperate attempt to validate my self-worth"-- sounds more like Ndamukong Suh, actually-- actually stems from two products of a website that I am otherwise quite intrigued by and supportive of (i.e, it makes me think more than the others and uncovers truths that most all the others don't): notably 1) a metric that keeps indicating the Packers have a average or worse defense, which thus makes them not stand out in overall ratings compared to any of about 5-6 other teams (including the Jets(!) a couple of weeks back; and 2) the supposition, argued on espn.com and here by a FO representative that because of their porous (his word, not mine) pass defense, the Packers probably couldn't win the Super Bowl.
And all I've been trying to say, and yesterday's game is as vivid an example of why in this case I believe I am a lot closer to the truth than DVOA, is that the Packers' defense, and specifically their pass defense, is getting a huge bum rap. That most of the performance that drags the metric down is either an illusion caused by garbage time or a less important fact than the countervailing evidence that every time over now nearly an entire calendar year that they have been asked to stop the opposition, with games on the line late in the 4th Quarter, they have come through, and that their opportunistic play, creating interceptions, is not disconnected from the yards they also allow. It's not just bend, not break-- it is bend and then the opponents break.
When the streak reaches 25 games and the Dolphins throw away their champagne bottles and the Packers win the SB again-- for all the deserved praise that will be heaped on Aaron Rodgers, I expect to see a "rethinking the Packers defense" on this site-- and will welcome its presence. You see if in fact we are in the presence of a truly historic run-- the greatest winning streak in the history of the sport-- and let's say there's a 19.35784% chance that this is true-- why shouldn't there be at least a 19.35784% effort to dig a little deeper into the why?
by DisplacedPackerFan :: Fri, 11/25/2011 - 11:11am
I suspect that the Packers overall rating is going to improve. The Lions passing game was significantly worse than it had been most other games, being held to 5.2 yards per attempt. The TD's the Lions got will be discounted some because of the game situation. The Lions had a pretty solid 15.7% passing DVOA heading into the game. They were playing a 19.1% DVOA rated Packers pass defense. Lions passing plays were not generally 35% better than average.
The Packers passing offense should get a small boost, the Lions pass defense was -17.6% and while they did stop the Packers 3rd down offense a lot, especially in the first half. They still allowed a nearly 70% completion rate, at over 9 yards an attempt. It wasn't a dominate passing performance, there are more unsuccessful passing plays than the Packers typically get, but I still suspect DVOA will reward them.
The Packers run defense is going to get worse after this game, and that matches the eyeball test. Detroit was right about average at -0.6% and they continually ran on the Packers defense. We'll see on Tuesday but I actually think this game is going to help the Packers DVOA, mostly with the pass defense.
But then again I don't think DVOA is really that off on them. They have a stellar passing offense, an average run offense, an average run defense that is getting worse, and poor pass defense that is getting a little better with a bit above average special teams. They win because their passing offense is so good, they almost always have the lead and they play a high risk, high reward passing defense that emphasizes playing off to avoid penalties which had been problems in previous years, and trying to get the ball back when you can. But it has also been plagued by missed assignments and poor tackling.
I'm interesting in some of the passing defense splits though. Against Detroit they were clearly playing to take away the deep wide receivers, and they did holding Megatron to 3 catches for 46 yards on 7 targets before the pointless 3 yard TD at the end. Burleson had 5 catches for 39 yards on 7 targets. Sure they exposed their weakness to TE and RB receptions even more than usual, but it worked. I'll be interested to see how those change after this game.
Currently at 4.0% vs #1 WR, 7.8% vs #2 WR, -44.3% vs other WR, 38.6% vs TE, 27.0% vs RB.
This really isn't sour grapes, the niner played like shit but I would really like to see the NFL attempt to rectify the obvious advantage of playing at home on thursdays by making the home team play away the previous week while the visiting team gets a home game. Am I just being bitter to think that that is more fair?
by Joshua Northey (not verified) :: Fri, 11/25/2011 - 12:43am
The schedule was a little screwed up because of the lockout preparations. I am sure they had to bend a few things here and there. Maybe there was a concert or something that couldn't be moved (that sounds silly but those things are actually really important to the scheduling). Scheduling is really hard when you have so many conditions.
I don't think this game really matters much anyway. SF will have the #2 seed either way. Might even be good for them as they can rest guys in week 17 now.
The warm-weather and indoor teams are now 1-4 against the spread at cold-weather sites since Sunday, with the 49ers not covering at Baltimore tonight. San Fran is now 5-12-2 ATS since 1998 as a visitor in cold weather.
by cisforcookie (not verified) :: Fri, 11/25/2011 - 10:13am
well, to be honest, as someone who was in baltimore yesterday, the weather couldn't have been more perfect. it was not cold in the slightest, no rain, no wind, nothin. and they played on an artificial field. I would expect the shortened week and cross-country flight affected the niners much more than did anything about the weather. It was practically dome conditions out there.
by cisforcookie (not verified) :: Fri, 11/25/2011 - 10:13am
well, to be honest, as someone who was in baltimore yesterday, the weather couldn't have been more perfect. it was not cold in the slightest, no rain, no wind, nothin. and they played on an artificial field. I would expect the shortened week and cross-country flight affected the niners much more than did anything about the weather. It was practically dome conditions out there.
1-10-MIA 29 (2:00) (Shotgun) 29-D.Murray left end to MIA 20 for 9 yards (56-K.Burnett).
Once Murray had gained 6+ yards here, rather than tackle him, the correct play is to let him waltz in for the score. This gives them the ball after the kickoff with around 1:52 left and 2 timeouts, down 5. Instead, the Cowboys were able to run out the clock and kick a winning chip shot field goal as time expired.
Driving the length of the field in the 2-minute drill isn't easy, but it has better odds than the Cowboys missing a 30 yard field goal.
by Just Another Falcons Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 11/27/2011 - 3:03pm
Falcons up 14-0, Vikings showing little on offense. Viking long snapper may be out; Jared Allen is backup long snapper. That could make the rest of this game more interesting.
This game is so boring that anything unexpected could make it more interesting. The Vikings look like they couldn't score on offense even if they were given 5 downs every time they start a new series of downs.
by joe football (not verified) :: Sun, 11/27/2011 - 3:20pm
In addition to keeping up with the open thread, join a star-studded cast of your favorite FO posters for IRC football chat! Point your favorite IRC client to bendenweyr.dyndns.org, channel #fo
I just saw that Leinart is headed to the locker room and something named T.J. Yates is now at QB for Houston. What happened to Leinart? Yates' first throw went out of bounds about 15 yards over the head of the receiver.
by SFC B (not verified) :: Sun, 11/27/2011 - 3:30pm
Matt Leinart out after being driven to the ground and injuring his shoulder. TJ Yates active for the first time this season and playing. Leinart was looking pretty good before going out.
I don't know about "looking pretty good"; he actually looked to be in full-on Captain Checkdown mode (10/13, 57 yards--Yates nearly caught his yardage total on that one drive), just like during his last year in Arizona and the preseason that got him cut. Sure, Houston has a better running game than Arizona ever did (hence the whole "they're winning the game" thing), but if that's what he does against Jacksonville it's the kind of performance that would have Titans fans whetting their knives (except that the Titans are busy getting beat by the Bucs).
Not a particularly great series of plays for Cromartie there. First he muffs a punt return giving the Bills the ball back, then he's beat by Brad Smith for a touchdown. He does get a hand on the ball, but he knocks it in the air and Smith manages to catch the deflection.
To be fair, that play seemed quite fluky. I mean he was in perfect position, and Smith made a play that, at worst, should result in an incomplete pass. Great play by Smith, but Cromartie couldn't have played it much better.
by Just Another Falcons Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 11/27/2011 - 4:52pm
STUFFED on 4th and goal by Weatherspoon! Viking play calling very questionable. 2 up-the-gut runs by Harvin on 2nd and 3rd down, although the last Harvin run did get close.
For Leinart, it's very unfortunate. For the Texans, it's hard to tell. I don't think Yates is the answer, based on today, but it's hard to be sure based on one half of play from a rookie who wasn't prepared to start. Who is still available for them to bring in? They're almost certainly going to be veteran hunting this week.
The Texans have a two-game lead on the Titans with 5 to go. They'll almost certainly win the division regardless of who the QB is.
The problem is trying to win playoff games. They're going to have a rough going of it trying to beat any playoff team with a 3rd string QB, or with somebody who walked in off the street.
But multiple refs are tasked with watching the QB specifically, who's head is rarely lost in a pileup. You can't look at a QB without drawing a flag but Vince gets his head spun around and they call holding on the OL?
The holding happened first, FWIW. Young should have been on his ass.
The pass rusher who grabbed Young's facemask didn't use it to spin his helmet around, but released it.
Enforcement of the facemask penalty is very erratic.
Of course, the same is true of the holding penalty. Or PI, for that matter.
Young's head got turned. There's no denying it if you look at the replay. Considering the extra emphasis on protecting the QB, you'd think that type of call would be one of the easier ones to get right, especially since they simplified the rule and made all facemasks personal fouls.
This reference is too obscure. I see that somebody in the comments says something about Harvey Danger, but I don't see which quote that is supposed to refer to.
As for the "missed call" - I was pointing out that a lot of calls are missed. I think it's hard to construe that as whining about the officiating. Seems like the opposite to me.
That was an odd challenge. Is losing a challenge worth 8 yards? It was clear the Patriots were going to win the challenge, but now they only have one left, unless their second challenge is correct. On the other hand, it's unlikely a team would see two challengable plays in a game, so why not use it.
I suspect Belichick was fairly confident he'd win that challenge. The kick returner was clearly down 8 yards before he was whistled down. And 8 yards is worth getting.
Good question. That play looked like a classic example of a horsecollar tackle, yet Johnston claims it was a bad call.
Speaking of bad calls, that play call (the slow developing throwback to the tight end) that resulted in the interception was terrible. If the Bears lose this game, that play may end up being the biggest reason. That waas a 10 point swing, as the Bears looked like they were about to score a TD. I would have run the ball there, as it was second and 1 at about the six yard line with 35 or so seconds left. You either get a TD run or pick up the first down and then spike it. Another good play call would have been to have Hanie roll out, giving him a run-pass option. The last thing I would have him do is throw a blind pass like he did to Davis. Terrible play call, terrible execution.
Absolutely, terrible call. However, it was a great play by Louis to prevent the TD, regardless of whether it was a horse-collar or not. That could also end up being the difference. Great effort from a lineman getting that far down the field.
I destroyed my cell phone by repeatedly slamming the coat that contained it into the wall of the bar I was at, yelling various combinations of "F*** you, Martz!" and "Worst f***ing play call ever!"
I felt a bit sheepish immediately afterwards, but now I feel it was justified. You can make a real case that that call cost them the game. Classic Martz "look how clever I am" crap.
Tebows two-minute drill. It's ugly, but in contrast to the rest of his drives, it just keeps working. It was a short field. Marvelous. Now it looks like the Chargers will only take a three point lead to the locker rooms.
I've seen some awful pass interference calls, but the flag against Josh Wilson in the Seahawks - Redskins game is right up there with the worst of them.
It's funny hearing the hushed, fearful silence at the Oakland Colloseum every time a flag is thrown - each member of the crowd thinking "who's the personal foul on this time....?".
In other news, Caleb Hanie behind this offensive line is not pretty.
Oh Hanie by far. He's really played appalingly, throwing a couple of the worst picks you will see, and at one point comically running out of bounds 8 yards behind the line of scrimmage. However, it should be added that the Chicago offencsive line is no match for Seymour, Wimbley and co.
The reason the Raiders aren't out of sight is down more to spirited Bears' defence and the the usual collection of dumb Raiders penalties, than Palmer.
by Jerry F. (not verified) :: Sun, 11/27/2011 - 11:13pm
Hanie was awful, but in his defense, he got that ball off before going out of bounds. Had Smith challenged, Hanie would not have been in the long-yardage situation on the next down that led to him throwing another terrible pick.
Terminology question: Are there two kinds of "options"? The one on the perimiter with a pitch option, sure. But the one were the QB sticks the ball in the belly of the RB, and have the option of pulling it out again - is that also an "option" play?
From my limited knowledge of the option, I believe the answer is yes. Or rather, the base option play has several options. The first option is the dive through the line by the RB. The second option is a keeper by the QB and the third is the pitch outside. Not even option play uses all of these options, though.
If video games are to be believed, if you have both options it's called a triple option. Usually the first one (stuff it in the back;s belly or keeps it) is called a read option.
Edelman on a DB blitz almost gets to Young unblocked. He's close to consideration for a WR spot in my (very, very deep) IDP league purely for his stats on defense.
That was a special effort by the Raiders there, taking a time out after their own questionable sideline catch, allowing the Bears sideline all the time they wanted to review the tape. Outcome: successful challenge.
by Balaji (not verified) :: Sun, 11/27/2011 - 7:57pm
I appreciate a defensive game as much as anybody (and I'm a Steeler fan), but this just seems like a product of two sloppy/bad offenses as much as anything. Janikowski is still a beast though.
I feel like I've fallen into a mirror universe or something. Tebow is actually looking like a better QB than Rivers, and conversely, the Chargers are getting more out of their conventional offense in the running game than the Broncos are from their option. Life is strange today.
...and then there's Washington, where a different kind of kicking is on exhibition. The kind that made me not pick Gano for my Loser League team because I figured they'd have a new kicker before the end of the season.
Tebow in 4th quarter mode. I swear it's uncanny. 10-13 with the Broncos on the charger 10 yardline with second and eight. Flip to this game if you can!
Serious question: why doesn't the local CBS affiliate switch over from the rout in Philly? It's not like I live in either market. I'm in Redskins territory (they're on Fox today).
by Jerry F. (not verified) :: Sun, 11/27/2011 - 8:21pm
It seems like a bad idea to call the timeout at 2:01. Aren't you giving them the option to throw that way? It seems like you only lose a second if you let the two-minute warning happen and then they'll be much more likely to run on their next play after the stoppage.
Idiotic way for the game to end in Oakland. Hanie tries to run a fake spike, nobody gets open, so he goes ahead and spikes it. Intentional grounding, ten second runoff, game over.
You know you're not a good quarterback when:
You have a lot of time in the pocket and you overthrow your receiver so much that the announcer says you just threw it away.
The Bears run a semi fake spike, where Hanie looks to see if the receivers are uncovered before clocking it. The refs decide it's grounding. Not sure I agree with that call.
So spiking the ball mid play shouldn't be intentional?
That be nice if everyone started to do that. Just spike it on a sack and you have an incompletion.
I could be wrong, but I believe the wording on intentional grounding specifies throwing away to avoid a sack. Hanie was not in danger of being sacked to my eyes, so it shouldn't have been grounding.
One of the Raiders' rushers comes free just before he spikes the ball. At that point, it's pretty much textbook grounding. Inside the tackle box, ball doesn't reach the line of scrimmage, and the quarterback is under pressure.
That's an obviously correct call and a horrible decision by Hanie. Either spike it or don't spike it. If you don't spike it, then you have to go ahead and continue with the play. If you hesitate and then spike it, by rule it is intentional grounding and, in that situation, a ten second runoff.
Neither has Hanie, apparently. I knew right away that was a penalty and the game was over due to the runoff.
I am sure that is not how the play was designed. Hanie was just improvising there. Oh well, they obviously needed a miracle at that point to win anyway.
To be fair to Timmy, he might talk about Jesus a lot but I've never heard him claim that jesus is helping him win, just that he was blessed by him, which isn't that bad and this is coming from an athiest.
I was challenging your claim that Norv managed to "ice the kicker." He called a timeout, that's for sure. But it didn't appear to bother the kicker at all.
Sorry if you figure that's not "calm."
Maybe next time you'll read my comments in a calmer state of mind and not misread me so terribly.
He called the timeout, that's what I would regard as icing. You seem to be arguing with everyone, it's great that you have things to say but could you be slightly less belligerent about it?
Do you often get a positive response to "Please calm down"? From my point-of-view, that's a fairly inflammatory thing to say to somebody, especially when it's written in response to something relatively innocuous.
This sounds like a dialogue segment from the long-running series "Conversations with my wife..." Can we agree that this thread has reached a place where FO need not go?
I can't believe that no one has questioned whether the timeout to ice the kicker was a good one by the Broncos. If he misses you have over 2 minutes and good field position. Wouldn't the timeout be better served to possibly win the game on offense as opposed to icing a 53 yard field goal?
There are many reasons why wasting a timeout to ice the kicker are a bad idea. The fact that it's been shown to be of negligible benefit, at best, is one. What you bring up is another.
I think what a coach should want to do is make the presence or absence of a icing timeout unpredictable. Right now, with some coaches the timeout is entirely predictable. Shanahan will call the timeout every time. I think there would be benefit to having the kicking team think a timeout is coming, only to let them kick away. After all, after a timeout, there is zero possibility of icing the kicker on the second attempt, so that's one less thing for the kicker to worry about.
But yeah, on the whole, a timeout is far too valuable to be wasted on silly mindgames when there's a good amount of time on the clock.
I actually thought something similar but from the other perspective when Denver kicked the winning field goal with a chunk of time left. Wouldn't it be better to take the time down as far as you can before kicking, so that if the worst happens and you miss you're still basically guaranteed the tie as the Chargers won't have time to take advantage?
(And yes, I realise that's probably a very European perspective, where ties are a consistent and accepted result for our sports. In the NFL, it seems they're treated disdainfully by all parties and considered a wholly unsatisfactory outcome. Still, it's better than a loss.)
This feels like last week's Chiefs game against the Pats, where they a showed a lot of spirit on defence early on, but were ultimately ground down by the abysmal play of their QB.
Al Michaels points out that it's not like the Chiefs have anybody else who could play the position. Then he makes a reference to Len Dawson, who retired, what, 40 years ago?
Wondered to myself if he couldn't think of a more recent QB that more viewers would be familiar with - Trent Green? Rich Gannon? Perhaps Joe Montana?
The Chiefs don't exactly have a rich history for QB play.
by seattleite (not verified) :: Sun, 11/27/2011 - 10:18pm
Steelers tried a fade on 3rd and goal. A defender covering another receive slams into the target with the ball in flight and clearly prevents him from getting to the ball. What's the rationale for that not being DPI?
by Joshua Northey (not verified) :: Sun, 11/27/2011 - 10:30pm
The rationale is that PIT was intentionally running that defender into the other defender with a crossing pattern pick. It wasn't clean though so everyone just smashed together. They tend to cut the D-backs slack in that case.
The offensive player initiated the contact, in a lot of ways it was like a charge in basketball.
I think according to the letter of that the law that gets called, but you never see it actually called and that is a good thing.
by seattleite (not verified) :: Sun, 11/27/2011 - 10:39pm
There have been a lot of penalties for both teams on both sides of the ball
They may be calling it tight, but the players seem a bit unsettled as well.
Oh great. Costas is going after Stevie Johnson just like everybody else in the media. Apparently we're all supposed to think that the great field position for the Jets' last TD drive of the first half had more to do with the 15-yard penalty than with the fact that the kickoff went less than 10 yard downfield!!
I'm really starting to despise the sanctimonious attitudes of our sports media, especially as it seems to focus far more heavily on black athletes than on whites.
Can any of these clowns do even a tiny bit of research? Blaming Johnson for the field position of the Jets is positively idiotic!
Sanctimony aside, if doing TWO different TD dances on the same score isn't excssive, what is? And the penalty put the kicker in a bad spot, and probably caused him to try too hard to get them out of a jam.
I really think that there's a journalistic obligation to mention just how bad the kickoff was. But Costas and other media types just sweep that under the rug and blame the bad field position on Stevie Johnson.
If the Bills are kicking off from the 35, the kicker doesn't try to squib the ball down the middle of the field. If he doesn't try to squib the ball, he doesn't hit the upback.
by Charlie Roshambo (not verified) :: Sun, 11/27/2011 - 11:57pm
You calling anybody 'sanctimonious' is really the funniest thing I've read all day.
Now write 'ad hominem' or 'strawman' or something. That never gets old.
At least Stevie Johnson's celebration was funny, creative and original. Why can't Costas go after all these receivers who immediately motion for a flag or look around for the flag every time they don't catch a ball. Or in the Pittsburgh case, immediately try to set an illegal pick, initiate the contact and then throw a pretend flag on a ball that wasn't particularly well thrown anyways. To me, the begging for flags is much less tolerable to watch than celebrating scores.
by Joshua Northey (not verified) :: Mon, 11/28/2011 - 12:48am
Here here. I find the constant flag begging, and general cheating (pretending you had a catch you didn't et cetera) A LOT more annoying than some celebration that half the time is somewhat entertaining.
by Joshua Northey (not verified) :: Mon, 11/28/2011 - 12:47am
RickD- I agree with you here, though I don't think there is a racial element.
Costas is a piece of garbage. Talking about "the decline of morals". His whole piece is based on a silly (and common lie).
If you read some history you will learn that 50+ year olds have been spinning that thread since Republican Rome.
If records existed prior to that I am sure you would find out that cave men sat around saying "In my day children were respectful and moral".
Back in the real world society becomes more and more moral each generation. Less violence, less corruption, smarter kids. But it is a lot easier to attack things you don't understand or are not comfortable with than it is to actually learn about the world.
Next thing you know he will be telling us he somehow walked uphill both ways to school.
Yeah, I really was hesitant to bring up race, since race is brought up far too often as a possible factor when other factors are equally likely to be causes.
It bothers me to see Costas adopt a "kids today are bad!" approach to his job. I used to hold the guy in fairly high esteem.
I just don't understand how so many people can take this angle on the story and run with it without thinking about how long the kickoff was. I suspect that somebody, somewhere who knew how long the kickoff was decided to blame Johnson anyway, but that a lot of people who have jumped on the bandwagon just saw the damning video of Johnson and went with the easy explanation. Somebody at ESPN.com wasted little time putting together a hit piece.
The issues are completely orthogonal. Costas' essay may have been sanctimonious and trite. It came across to me much like those human interest stories every local news team loves so much. But let's not pick on irrelevant points. Costas made the claim that increasing self-congratulation and excessive celebration are bad both by detracting from the game by making it less enjoyable to watch and by harming the celebrant's team through penalties, a position with which I sympathize. Stevie Johnson was one recent example of the latter. Bad kick or not, the penalty yardage is a detriment to his team, right? The claim that the focus was more heavy on black athletes than white ones is completely unsupported by the statements he made. He spoke out against show boating and didn't make any statements that would lead me to believe he considers it more acceptable for a white athlete to showboat.
I know I've seen the 5 yarder "running into the kicker" penalty called at least twice this season. I don't recall hearing it ever being removed, nor any discussion of potentially doing so. The justification for getting rid of the incidental 5-yard facemask was so refs didn't have a judgement call to make in a split second. Running into the kicker and roughing the kicker are considerably more clear.
So the game ends when Tyler Palko throws the ball to Dwayne Bowe, who is
(a) not in the end zone
(b) surrounded by five Steelers
One of the five picks it off.
Apparently this is Dwayne Bowe's fault. According to Collinsworth. Bowe should have fought off five defenders to get a ball that was five feet away and somehow eluded all five of them to score the winning TD.
I suspect that if Mike Vick had thrown that pass to, oh, to pick a receiver at random, Brent Celek, when he was covered by five guys, the announcers would have found a way to blame the QB.
by Gus (not verified) :: Mon, 11/28/2011 - 12:34am
It wasn't all his fault, but not at least trying to get a hand on the ball was puzzling. Plus, Palko seemed to think it was the wrong route (should've been going deep on a corner or go). Can't tell on that last point without hearing from the Chefs, of course.
We don't know what Palko was upset about. Well, except that Collinsworth knew what he was upset about without talking to the guy. Collinsworth knew that Palko was upset about exactly the same thing Collinsworth was upset about!
If that's the case, Palko has to long into the mirror.
Yes, I think Bowe could have done something differently that looked more like going for the ball. Well, at least that's what it seems like in replay, but replays can be deceptive with regard to physical properties like speed and momentum. But I still saw possibly the worst pass of the season (thrown into quintuple coverage!!) being thrown by a QB in the midst of the worst QB outing of the season.
by Joshua Northey (not verified) :: Mon, 11/28/2011 - 12:41am
I don't think racism has anything to do with it at all honestly. You are just trolling. Can you ever go a week without making a silly troll thread or two?
During the broadcast they were at first all over Palko. OMG racism against whites!
Then they noticed what I noticed, that Bowe didn't even make a cursory attempt at the ball. After that there was a clear change in attitude.
I thought it was completely justified, making an attempt on that ball is exactly what he is paid to do. I thought he was supposed to be one of the new elite receivers? Seemed really soft to me.
Not to mention the fact that people cannot even light him up anymore because the rules have become so defense phobic.
I'm tired of bad QBing being excused by broadcasters.
This week's incident(s) remind me too much of a similar play a couple weeks ago when Philip Rivers threw a pick and Vincent Jackson was blamed.
Sometimes, the pick is the QB's fault!
You may disagree with my opinion (and you're certainly free to do so) but you should know that I'm not "trolling", at least not as I understand the word.
I see bad media coverage and I think that's worth discussing. My understanding of the word "trolling" is that it happens when a person throws out inflammatory words and arguments solely for the joy of seeing negative reactions.
That's not what I'm doing.
And the next time I see a white WR blamed in the same way black WRs are blamed as a matter of course will be the first time I see such a thing.
And yes, Stevie Johnson is an idiot. That doesn't mean Costas should ignore how long the kickoff was in his anti-Stevie Johnson diatribe.
by Joshua Northey (not verified) :: Mon, 11/28/2011 - 1:07am
Well the announcers definitely slurp all over white players a lot more than the black ones, I will give you that. I just don't see that as being the case here.
I think the reaction is the same if that is Jordy Nelson. It is possible I am wrong about that.
The racism does work both ways FWIW :)
I heard two prominent NFL analysts going on and on about how Jordy Nelson is so small and shifty and how that opens up the field for him in ways it isn't open for Jennings et cetera. They compared him to Wes Welker repeatedly (I kid you not). Wes Welker is 6" shorter and 35 pounds lighter than Jordy Nelson!
Nelson isn't small or shifty, he is a big tall white dude who is fast, but in the NFL white guys work hard and are small and shifty, we won't let the facts get in the way of our narrative.
by Jerry F. (not verified) :: Mon, 11/28/2011 - 1:56am
The throw was off. Bowe might have jumped, then kept his hands down because he suddenly thought it must be for another receiver. In playing football and basketball, I've found stuff like this happens all the time. A pass is off and so the receiver, thinking it's for somebody else, lets it sail by. This seems especially likely since it appeared to be a broken route.
This may sound far-fetched, but I feel it's no more far-fetched than a wide receiver just deciding not to reach for a football.
I agree, Joshua, this had nothing to do with racism. In fact, the two positive examples Costas gave of TD reactions were of black players (Homer Jones and Barry Sanders). And Sanders was explicitly compared favorably to a white guy (Gastineau) who was described as "uncool".
by TheVoiceOfReason (not verified) :: Tue, 11/29/2011 - 12:56am
DBs, you're going to get called for unnecessary roughness on every deep pass play. It does not matter whether the receiver catches the ball, drops the ball, sees you coming and prepares for the hit, tries a juke, or even if you back off before you make contact. Tackling hurts, and it's no longer permitted to lay the wood on QBs or receivers.
This is only a mild exaggeration, but really, you're going to get penalized, so you might as well give up and go back to the bone-crushing hits that made the NFL so popular. Just change from the Superfly high-body shots to mid-body. A couple of well-timed rib shots will eliminate the deep threat later in the game, because there won't be any receivers to throw to.
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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Anthem fail.
National anthem
That has to be the biggest national anthem screw up in the history of mankind. Disgrace.
Re: National anthem
Not sure if that was the absolute worst, but it was down there.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
The Lions offense looks really out of sync and Stafford is missing badly so far. Do they think they can get down by 17 against the Packers and come back?
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
And two drops by Finley kill a drive.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Does anyone else find these Target ads for Black Friday to be incredibly annoying?
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Is that the one with the ageing woman who reeks of desperation?
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
It's actually comedian Maria Bamford pretending to be an old woman.
Re: Packers Play calling
Is anyone else confused by what the Packers are trying to do? They're not even threatening to run the football. They've had a bunch of 2nd and 3rd and 1s, and have come out in shotgun formation each time. The Lions can be run on, I have no clue what McCarthy is doing. He has generally been a very good play caller (for three quarters), but not today.
Re: Packers Play calling
Yes, agree completely. It makes no sense, especially considering how the passing game is not clicking so far.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Did the Packers trade for Jim Caldwell this week without me knowing? What's with these awful short yardage punts from past midfield?
I don't understand the third and one play if the intention wasn't to go for it on fourth down.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Lions just got hit with an unspeakably terrible pass interference call. The defensive back looked back for the ball, didn't touch Jennings until the ball had bounced off Jennings' hands, and still was penalised for, I don't know, breathing wrong or something.
Is coverage actually allowed in the current NFL rules?
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Then a couple of plays later, apparently it's perfectly fine for Jordi Nelson to block a defensive back out of the play while Rodgers is passing the ball to Jennings. Touchdown Packers. Horrid officiating.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
He did have a handful of Jennings' jersey. That's an obvious PI call.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
I saw hand on jersey, and just now Aikman replayed it. Didn't affect the play though, and wasn't anywhere near as interfere-y as the earlier contact on 3rd and 1 that had been allowed.
The refs are as visible in this game as Ron Winter's crew usually is. I don't like it.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
There was also that defensive holding call when Jones just stumbled.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
And now, of course, there is one of the worst roughing the passer calls I've ever seen. These officials are doing their damndest to make this game unwatchable.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Any foul that is penalised with an automatic first down on defense ought to be penalised with loss of down on offense. Examples: Illegal hands to the face. Holding. Pass Interference.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
As Aikman said, that's a terrible roughing the passer call.
How many penalties have been called (including offsetting penalties and declined penalties)? Are the officials getting a commission for each flag they throw?
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
It was appalling. If that's roughing, they might as well institute a two-hand-touch rule for quarterbacks.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
For the 94rd week in a row, I'd just like to comment that no team gets screwed by the refs like the Lions.
/Not a Lion fan
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Yep, Lions are getting screwed out there. Time to deprive Fox of some advertiser money.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Every other tackle by the Pack seems to involve trying to wrestle the runner down by their head or neck. I'm not saying it's either illegal or that dirty but it is horrendous technique.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
As much as the Lions are getting screwed by the refs, they're also committing their fair share of self-inflicted wounds. I feel the way I do when I'm watching the Jets: there's good (maybe even a lot of it) totally offset by stupidity and self-immolation. Make the field goal. Don't turn the ball over. Manage to block the pass rush without holding. The Pack do these things, generally. And they're 10-0.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Lions are killing themselves with penalties.
Some are undeserved (most notably the one on Vanden Bosch for roughing the passer) but a lot of them were deserved and killed their early drives.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
...and Suh gets himself kicked out of the game for stomping.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
When this happened, to paraphrase a maligned-around-these-parts sportswriter, if I had a notebook, I would have written "Game Over" in it. And lo, it would have come to pass.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Suh demonstrates that the Lions don't need to be screwed by the referees. They're perfectly capable of fouling legitimately, thank you very much.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
I find myself surprised when they're able to run a play without a flag or two flying. This is ridiculous.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
This game really is being ruined by penalties. Not that (some) aren't deserved. But boy does it make for a awful game to watch.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
That dude has an anger management problem.
Seriously...if you are still getting that pissed off and stomping on people b/c some O-Lineman is cutting you and/or employing questionable tactics at the NFL level, then you are sending a signal to everyone to do the same.
$20MM talent, $0.05 head.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
He basically got beat on that play and couldn't handle it.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Packers are now ahead by 21. It is now time to see why the Packers Defense DVOA is so bad. Over/under on probable Lions TD is about 2 minutes.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
That INT by Woodson was brilliant.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
It's amazing how Pathetic GB is at Defending Passes to RBs.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
It becomes tougher when 3/4 of your starting linebackers are out.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
This would matter if they weren't the 29th ranked pass defense vs running backs going into the game. Even with their starting LB's they suck at covering RB and TE (30th in the league against TE).
They are bad, they have been bad all year, they are worse with back-ups.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
I was chatting with friends about how Francois couldn't cover any one either when he made an acrobatic pick - Smith at least seemed to be good at tackling people
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
The only thing worse GB is worse at than defending Passes is 4th Quarter Defense with a Big Lead.
I Predict a 31-24 final score
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
At least this "Star Spangled Banner" sounded decent. Not a great version, but at least they got all the words right.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Maybe GB somehow causes bad National Anthems
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
I'm sure we'll see a regression toward the mean.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Impressively flagrant DPI there on the Cowboys. But Brandon Marshall still makes the catch! Defender riding his neck with both hands like a small boy.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Brandon Marshall just made a play. Beat Newman off the line, the pass is underthrown, Marshall slows down, Newman knows he's in trouble and absolutely mauls Marshall who makes the catch in the endzone anyway.
Put that guy on national TV and throw him a deep ball.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
That was an incredible drive by Romo
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Cowboys takes a timeout prior to a Miami FG-try from the 4 yard-line. WTF?
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
The reason, you ask? To many Cowboys were on the field. So god damn what? You are trading a timeout for 2 yards of field position. The chance of Miami missing the kick twice? Around .25 percent. One timeout for a gain of .0075 expected points. Yeesh.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Am I alone in wondering how much money is being wasted on the jet fuel used in all these iron-man award promos?
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
No you are not alone. I think a jet like that runs maybe $5,000/hour in fuel alone. Then you have the pilot and ground personnel, general wear and tear, etc.
But the defense budget is so big things like this are rounding errors on rounding errors.
It is probably all buried in the recruitment budget somewhere if they are doing their accounting correctly.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Do FOX not pay the bill?
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Awful clock management from Miami there, allowing the clock to run down to the 2 minute warning without taking a timeout
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
This is the second time the 49ers have faced a Ryan style defense and it's the second time the pass protection has utterly collapsed. I really hope that John is going to give John some tips after the game. The 49er pass rush has also been non existent since getting some pressure on the opening two drives.
I can't see the niners winning this one unless something amazing happens.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
I was wondering about the experience level of Greg Roman and whatsisname, the OL coach, after the game. Tim Drevno. I was emailing with FO charter Chris, who does Ravens games, and he seemed to feel that the various Ravens blitzes showcased Pagano's creativity. Seemed to me that the Ravens just dusted off some "standard" zone blitzes and deceptive pressures, either left over from Rex Ryan's playbook or maybe run by the scout team during any of the 10 Pittsburgh weeks they've prepped for over the last few years, and the Niners just weren't prepared for that stuff.
Do the Niners not see that stuff very often? Maybe the coaching staff just didn't have time to teach for it, given no offseason and a short training camp.
If Packers DVOA Drops after This Game....
I'll laugh all the way to Indianapolis. But I wouldn't be shocked because this metric has obviously run up against the exception that may or may not prove the rule. Packers have all the defense they need, when they need it. How many other defenses in the league have faced the opposition late in the 4th Quarter, protecting a 7 pt lead or less, something like 9-10 consecutive times now, and STOPPED them every time?? Stick that up your DVOA, folks.
Score was 24-0 after 3rd INT, and after that they allowed a semi-garbage TD, and then a total garbage TD to once again allow their opponents to exceed 400 YDS. Without either of their starting inside LBs, but never mind the replacement got a pick. Fact is they are the most opportunistic defense in the league. And today the pass rush was greatly improved and direct cause of many of the Lions' offensive penalties. And when the game was decided, they turned off the gas. When Rodgers and Co. had an uncharacteristically poor first half, what did the Packers defense do? Pitch a shutout and produce the turnover that led to the lone score.
They are as good as they need to be, and that will ultimately be another SB championship.
Re: If Packers DVOA Drops after This Game....
I assume that you live under a bridge and prey on billygoats.
No, not at all
If there is a way to filter in DVOA for the two meaningless TDs the Lions scored today, and all the meaningless yards the Packers allowed, then I'm all ears. I suspect, however, that this game will look in DVOA like a close Packer victory, when in fact once their offense got untracked it was no contest.
And I am simply making the case that this is a defense that is continually as good as it needs to be-- dating back to the 6 games won in last year's SB run and now through the 11 this year. The interceptions are a skill set that is hugely impactful on nearly every game this team plays. The fact that as of this morning the 49ers had almost the same odds as winning the Super Bowl as the Packers is a joke. As is the ranking of Houston ahead of GB in DVOA. This team takes the best shots from every team on their schedule every week, a condition that will only heighten as they approach 16-0. I respect Aaron and the FO staff for attempting to quantify the game in heretofore unknown or underappreciated ways-- but no system is perfect, and this one has been underselling the Packers for nearly a year now.
Re: No, not at all
I think Aaron tried taking out garbage time plays from the formula but found it made it less predictive.
Re: No, not at all
The problem with this, is that its entirely possible that garbage time isn't predictive in the case of the team winning, but is in the case of the team that is losing.
Aaron doesn't give us any info on what he actually did though, or how he defines garbage time, etc. So the statement is pretty much useless.
Re: No, not at all
And I am simply making the case that this is a defense that is continually as good as it needs to be
No, you aren't, you're looking for validation that the sports team you support is better than the other teams, in an apparently desperate attempt to validate your self-worth. You aren't alone in this - you have millions of brothers, but, y'know, self-awareness.
Your argument - as good as it needs to be - is true and self-evident, as long as your definition of need is posting the win for the team. This is argument after the fact. You're right, but it's not particularly interesting. DVOA, for it's flaws, attempts to both explain why, and predict what next. DVOA may well be less correct, but it's far, far, far more interesting than simply reposting the win-loss records for every team
Oh, Please
"simply reposting the win-loss records"..... Yep-- 17 straight Ws. Only happened a couple of times in the past 20 years, right?? Only a few times in the 20+ years before that?? You think it might cause people to wonder why and dig beneath an obvious first level? My supposedly "desperate attempt to validate my self-worth"-- sounds more like Ndamukong Suh, actually-- actually stems from two products of a website that I am otherwise quite intrigued by and supportive of (i.e, it makes me think more than the others and uncovers truths that most all the others don't): notably 1) a metric that keeps indicating the Packers have a average or worse defense, which thus makes them not stand out in overall ratings compared to any of about 5-6 other teams (including the Jets(!) a couple of weeks back; and 2) the supposition, argued on espn.com and here by a FO representative that because of their porous (his word, not mine) pass defense, the Packers probably couldn't win the Super Bowl.
And all I've been trying to say, and yesterday's game is as vivid an example of why in this case I believe I am a lot closer to the truth than DVOA, is that the Packers' defense, and specifically their pass defense, is getting a huge bum rap. That most of the performance that drags the metric down is either an illusion caused by garbage time or a less important fact than the countervailing evidence that every time over now nearly an entire calendar year that they have been asked to stop the opposition, with games on the line late in the 4th Quarter, they have come through, and that their opportunistic play, creating interceptions, is not disconnected from the yards they also allow. It's not just bend, not break-- it is bend and then the opponents break.
When the streak reaches 25 games and the Dolphins throw away their champagne bottles and the Packers win the SB again-- for all the deserved praise that will be heaped on Aaron Rodgers, I expect to see a "rethinking the Packers defense" on this site-- and will welcome its presence. You see if in fact we are in the presence of a truly historic run-- the greatest winning streak in the history of the sport-- and let's say there's a 19.35784% chance that this is true-- why shouldn't there be at least a 19.35784% effort to dig a little deeper into the why?
Re: If Packers DVOA Drops after This Game....
I suspect that the Packers overall rating is going to improve. The Lions passing game was significantly worse than it had been most other games, being held to 5.2 yards per attempt. The TD's the Lions got will be discounted some because of the game situation. The Lions had a pretty solid 15.7% passing DVOA heading into the game. They were playing a 19.1% DVOA rated Packers pass defense. Lions passing plays were not generally 35% better than average.
The Packers passing offense should get a small boost, the Lions pass defense was -17.6% and while they did stop the Packers 3rd down offense a lot, especially in the first half. They still allowed a nearly 70% completion rate, at over 9 yards an attempt. It wasn't a dominate passing performance, there are more unsuccessful passing plays than the Packers typically get, but I still suspect DVOA will reward them.
The Packers run defense is going to get worse after this game, and that matches the eyeball test. Detroit was right about average at -0.6% and they continually ran on the Packers defense. We'll see on Tuesday but I actually think this game is going to help the Packers DVOA, mostly with the pass defense.
But then again I don't think DVOA is really that off on them. They have a stellar passing offense, an average run offense, an average run defense that is getting worse, and poor pass defense that is getting a little better with a bit above average special teams. They win because their passing offense is so good, they almost always have the lead and they play a high risk, high reward passing defense that emphasizes playing off to avoid penalties which had been problems in previous years, and trying to get the ball back when you can. But it has also been plagued by missed assignments and poor tackling.
I'm interesting in some of the passing defense splits though. Against Detroit they were clearly playing to take away the deep wide receivers, and they did holding Megatron to 3 catches for 46 yards on 7 targets before the pointless 3 yard TD at the end. Burleson had 5 catches for 39 yards on 7 targets. Sure they exposed their weakness to TE and RB receptions even more than usual, but it worked. I'll be interested to see how those change after this game.
Currently at 4.0% vs #1 WR, 7.8% vs #2 WR, -44.3% vs other WR, 38.6% vs TE, 27.0% vs RB.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
This really isn't sour grapes, the niner played like shit but I would really like to see the NFL attempt to rectify the obvious advantage of playing at home on thursdays by making the home team play away the previous week while the visiting team gets a home game. Am I just being bitter to think that that is more fair?
Detroit was at home; Dallas was on the road
No complaints from Miami or Green Bay-- talent wins out-- the Niners got beat. It is sour grapes.
Re: Detroit was at home; Dallas was on the road
If Dallas was on the road, then Miami really went all out on making their stadium look like it was in Texas...
Re: Detroit was at home; Dallas was on the road
Invocation of FOMBC? Just sayin'....
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
The schedule was a little screwed up because of the lockout preparations. I am sure they had to bend a few things here and there. Maybe there was a concert or something that couldn't be moved (that sounds silly but those things are actually really important to the scheduling). Scheduling is really hard when you have so many conditions.
I don't think this game really matters much anyway. SF will have the #2 seed either way. Might even be good for them as they can rest guys in week 17 now.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
How about just giving any team playing a Thursday game a bye the week before?
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
+3
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
The warm-weather and indoor teams are now 1-4 against the spread at cold-weather sites since Sunday, with the 49ers not covering at Baltimore tonight. San Fran is now 5-12-2 ATS since 1998 as a visitor in cold weather.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
well, to be honest, as someone who was in baltimore yesterday, the weather couldn't have been more perfect. it was not cold in the slightest, no rain, no wind, nothin. and they played on an artificial field. I would expect the shortened week and cross-country flight affected the niners much more than did anything about the weather. It was practically dome conditions out there.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
well, to be honest, as someone who was in baltimore yesterday, the weather couldn't have been more perfect. it was not cold in the slightest, no rain, no wind, nothin. and they played on an artificial field. I would expect the shortened week and cross-country flight affected the niners much more than did anything about the weather. It was practically dome conditions out there.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
1-10-MIA 29 (2:00) (Shotgun) 29-D.Murray left end to MIA 20 for 9 yards (56-K.Burnett).
Once Murray had gained 6+ yards here, rather than tackle him, the correct play is to let him waltz in for the score. This gives them the ball after the kickoff with around 1:52 left and 2 timeouts, down 5. Instead, the Cowboys were able to run out the clock and kick a winning chip shot field goal as time expired.
Driving the length of the field in the 2-minute drill isn't easy, but it has better odds than the Cowboys missing a 30 yard field goal.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Pretty sweet return reverse by the Titans to make it 7 to 3.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Falcons up 14-0, Vikings showing little on offense. Viking long snapper may be out; Jared Allen is backup long snapper. That could make the rest of this game more interesting.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
This game is so boring that anything unexpected could make it more interesting. The Vikings look like they couldn't score on offense even if they were given 5 downs every time they start a new series of downs.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
First Allen punt snap no issues, but he had to make the tackle after a 42-yard punt return.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Revis gives Stevie Johnson a huge cushion. Stevie gets an easy TD. Wait - what just happened?
Sanchez continues to suck. Terrible pick set up the TD.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Why would Bills try onside kick with 2 minutes left in the half? And then a personal foul.
Neither team seems to want to win this game.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
The insane part is that it was not on purpose. The kicker just "missed". I mean he completely whiffed. Incredible.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
In addition to keeping up with the open thread, join a star-studded cast of your favorite FO posters for IRC football chat! Point your favorite IRC client to bendenweyr.dyndns.org, channel #fo
Or for a web-based solution, just use this mibbit link: http://chat.mibbit.com/?channel=%23fo&server=bendenweyr.dyndns.org
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Leinart out. Something the announcers have identified as T.J. Yates is quarterbacking the Texans.
Edit: And doing well, so far, by the look of things.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Hah! We independently wrote almost the same thing.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
I've never seen intentional grounding where the ball was thrown through the endzone before.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Leinart goes to the locker room. Some rookie named T.J. Yates running the two-minute drill. Yikes!
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
I just saw that Leinart is headed to the locker room and something named T.J. Yates is now at QB for Houston. What happened to Leinart? Yates' first throw went out of bounds about 15 yards over the head of the receiver.
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Leinart was driven into the ground on a sack, injured throwing arm.
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Matt Leinart out after being driven to the ground and injuring his shoulder. TJ Yates active for the first time this season and playing. Leinart was looking pretty good before going out.
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I don't know about "looking pretty good"; he actually looked to be in full-on Captain Checkdown mode (10/13, 57 yards--Yates nearly caught his yardage total on that one drive), just like during his last year in Arizona and the preseason that got him cut. Sure, Houston has a better running game than Arizona ever did (hence the whole "they're winning the game" thing), but if that's what he does against Jacksonville it's the kind of performance that would have Titans fans whetting their knives (except that the Titans are busy getting beat by the Bucs).
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Jacksonville are way, way better against the pass than the Titans. (In terms of DVOA)
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"Whetting their knives" in the sense of "we can catch these guys in the standings."
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Hasselbeck finds Aqib Talib on a crossing route for a Tampa Bay touchdown. Perfect throw... if Talib was a Titans receiver.
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Eugene Amano with a reception for Tennessee.
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Not a particularly great series of plays for Cromartie there. First he muffs a punt return giving the Bills the ball back, then he's beat by Brad Smith for a touchdown. He does get a hand on the ball, but he knocks it in the air and Smith manages to catch the deflection.
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To be fair, that play seemed quite fluky. I mean he was in perfect position, and Smith made a play that, at worst, should result in an incomplete pass. Great play by Smith, but Cromartie couldn't have played it much better.
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Phenomenal TD strike from Ponder to Harvin, on 4th and 13.
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Weird coverage scheme, or more likely, Chris Owens = Toast.
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Check out the Ponder to Harvin TD to make it 14-17! Amazing. On 4th-and-13!
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Another catch for Stevie Johnson against Revis. He's doing better against Revis than anybody else I can recall ever doing.
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Falcons return to no-huddle and drive down the field for 7. All back to normal in Atlanta.
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Until the kickoff...
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GAH! Harvin runs almost all the way in on the KO return. Hauled down by Toast at the 3.
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Crisis averted! (Seriously, in a ten-point game, you need to consider taking the FG there.)
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STUFFED on 4th and goal by Weatherspoon! Viking play calling very questionable. 2 up-the-gut runs by Harvin on 2nd and 3rd down, although the last Harvin run did get close.
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Gabbert Benched - Luke McCown under center. Not sure what the point of that is. A coach coaching for his job, i guess.
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So what did Fred Davis do to win today's "Showboating Idiot of the Week" award? Spike the ball in someone's face?
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Took exactly three plays for the Eagles to burn the Pats' secondary.
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Jason La Canfora reporting Leinart has a broken collarbone. Done for the year.
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Thats a shame. I don't know how much worse this is for the Texans, but for Leinart this is brutal. He had the perfect situation to revive his career.
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For Leinart, it's very unfortunate. For the Texans, it's hard to tell. I don't think Yates is the answer, based on today, but it's hard to be sure based on one half of play from a rookie who wasn't prepared to start. Who is still available for them to bring in? They're almost certainly going to be veteran hunting this week.
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The Texans have a two-game lead on the Titans with 5 to go. They'll almost certainly win the division regardless of who the QB is.
The problem is trying to win playoff games. They're going to have a rough going of it trying to beat any playoff team with a 3rd string QB, or with somebody who walked in off the street.
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Hanie. So bad.
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Just so bad.
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Hanie with two bad interceptions so far. And yes, there isn't really a "good" interception, but these have both been bad rather than unlucky.
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The announcer of the Broncos game, Dierdorf i think, insists on saying "defencing".
"Well defenced by Jammer"
"In order to denfence Tebow..."
English is my second language, but I don't think I've ever heard that before?
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Unfortunately, it's fairly common for NFL announcers.
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Annoying! I believe it's Fouts, btw. (which also makes more sense considering the matchup)
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How do two refs miss a facemask penalty on the QB?
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A lot of facemask penalties are missed.
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But multiple refs are tasked with watching the QB specifically, who's head is rarely lost in a pileup. You can't look at a QB without drawing a flag but Vince gets his head spun around and they call holding on the OL?
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The holding happened first, FWIW. Young should have been on his ass.
The pass rusher who grabbed Young's facemask didn't use it to spin his helmet around, but released it.
Enforcement of the facemask penalty is very erratic.
Of course, the same is true of the holding penalty. Or PI, for that matter.
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Young's head got turned. There's no denying it if you look at the replay. Considering the extra emphasis on protecting the QB, you'd think that type of call would be one of the easier ones to get right, especially since they simplified the rule and made all facemasks personal fouls.
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As a Patriots fan, I was surprised that wasn't called too.
Yes, calls do go against the Patriots. Sometimes even questionable ones. But you knew that.
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For some odd reason, the NFL's concern for the health and safety of QB's has never extended to Vince Young OR Michael Vick.
Bill Caldwell
http://www.nashvillestormonline.com
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I wonder why...?
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Now a blown PI call on an interception. Do calls EVER go against the Patriots?
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A "blown PI call"? Oh, please. This was the same play a pass rusher was being held, right?
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Arguing about penalties vs the Patriots never goes well. People see what they believe.
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Well that was certainly a convincing argument. Just go ad hominem right away.
Don't do something like talk about what contact was supposed to be PI.
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Please see the Harvey Danger headline from This Week in Quotes...
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This reference is too obscure. I see that somebody in the comments says something about Harvey Danger, but I don't see which quote that is supposed to refer to.
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That person in the comments was me.
Harvey Danger - Flagpole Sitta
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEMQ...
"Paranoia, paranoia, everybody's comin' to get me"
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Of course...it had to be the same play as a missed hold on PHI.
Please know...your one-trick pony routine...never gets old. Never.
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Who are you? I've never seen you before.
And yes, there was a missed holding on that play. There's a lot of holding in the NFL. If you are recording the game, you can take a look at it.
Or you can just go ad hominem.
Enjoy whining about the refs. That's a true sign of class.
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Ah...so when other people do it, it's "whining" and a "true sign of class".
But when the board's resident "internet-know-it-all" does it, you are just pointing out a "missed" call.
You are beyond precious.
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Read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
As for the "missed call" - I was pointing out that a lot of calls are missed. I think it's hard to construe that as whining about the officiating. Seems like the opposite to me.
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That word... I do not think it means what you think it means.
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The Eagles' pass d is just as shaky as the Pats'. This could be a high scoring game.
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Tebow completion watch: First of the day for a conversion on 3rd-and-4. 3:36 left in the second quater. Yes. 26,5 minutes into the game.
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The Broncos' offense is complete flustered by the sight of a defence that's expecting QB-draw on 3rd-and-3.
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That was an odd challenge. Is losing a challenge worth 8 yards? It was clear the Patriots were going to win the challenge, but now they only have one left, unless their second challenge is correct. On the other hand, it's unlikely a team would see two challengable plays in a game, so why not use it.
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I suspect Belichick was fairly confident he'd win that challenge. The kick returner was clearly down 8 yards before he was whistled down. And 8 yards is worth getting.
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Zen Koan of the day:
If a blatant horsecollar tackle occurs and only Daryl Johnston is there to see it, did it really happen?
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Hearing him argue against that penalty was laughable. It was as blatant a horsecollar foul as you'll ever see.
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Good question. That play looked like a classic example of a horsecollar tackle, yet Johnston claims it was a bad call.
Speaking of bad calls, that play call (the slow developing throwback to the tight end) that resulted in the interception was terrible. If the Bears lose this game, that play may end up being the biggest reason. That waas a 10 point swing, as the Bears looked like they were about to score a TD. I would have run the ball there, as it was second and 1 at about the six yard line with 35 or so seconds left. You either get a TD run or pick up the first down and then spike it. Another good play call would have been to have Hanie roll out, giving him a run-pass option. The last thing I would have him do is throw a blind pass like he did to Davis. Terrible play call, terrible execution.
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Absolutely, terrible call. However, it was a great play by Louis to prevent the TD, regardless of whether it was a horse-collar or not. That could also end up being the difference. Great effort from a lineman getting that far down the field.
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I destroyed my cell phone by repeatedly slamming the coat that contained it into the wall of the bar I was at, yelling various combinations of "F*** you, Martz!" and "Worst f***ing play call ever!"
I felt a bit sheepish immediately afterwards, but now I feel it was justified. You can make a real case that that call cost them the game. Classic Martz "look how clever I am" crap.
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Tebows two-minute drill. It's ugly, but in contrast to the rest of his drives, it just keeps working. It was a short field. Marvelous. Now it looks like the Chargers will only take a three point lead to the locker rooms.
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Boo birds in San Diego. Hee hee.
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Martz needs to burn that play.
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And once again the Bears defence steps up in the red zone to keep them in the game.
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Tebow is weird department: He yells "go" instead of "hut" or "hike". Never heard that before.
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My high school team did that. But you're right, it is weird.
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Tom Brady,
Please stop running for yardage.
Signed, all of New England.
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I've seen some awful pass interference calls, but the flag against Josh Wilson in the Seahawks - Redskins game is right up there with the worst of them.
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It's funny hearing the hushed, fearful silence at the Oakland Colloseum every time a flag is thrown - each member of the crowd thinking "who's the personal foul on this time....?".
In other news, Caleb Hanie behind this offensive line is not pretty.
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Objectively, who looks worse, Hanie or Palmer?
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Oh Hanie by far. He's really played appalingly, throwing a couple of the worst picks you will see, and at one point comically running out of bounds 8 yards behind the line of scrimmage. However, it should be added that the Chicago offencsive line is no match for Seymour, Wimbley and co.
The reason the Raiders aren't out of sight is down more to spirited Bears' defence and the the usual collection of dumb Raiders penalties, than Palmer.
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Oakland's red zone play calling leaves a bit to be desired too.
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Hanie was awful, but in his defense, he got that ball off before going out of bounds. Had Smith challenged, Hanie would not have been in the long-yardage situation on the next down that led to him throwing another terrible pick.
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Not sure on if they were correct or not, but the announcers said at the time it was a call that couldn't be challenged.
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That looked like a catch and a fumble to me, but what do I know? Answer: Everything.
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Danish announcers just called Julian Edelman a better athlete than Vince Young.
That 2005 Rose Bowl was not aired in Denmark.
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I can understand going for it on 4th and 1 at the 2 yard line. But that was a very questionable play call by Andy Reid.
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You didn't really expect Reid to run the ball on 4th down, did you?
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I forget myself. I don't watch enough of the Eagles.
But...they only needed 1 yard! The play they chose was TD-or-bust.
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Terminology question: Are there two kinds of "options"? The one on the perimiter with a pitch option, sure. But the one were the QB sticks the ball in the belly of the RB, and have the option of pulling it out again - is that also an "option" play?
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From my limited knowledge of the option, I believe the answer is yes. Or rather, the base option play has several options. The first option is the dive through the line by the RB. The second option is a keeper by the QB and the third is the pitch outside. Not even option play uses all of these options, though.
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I see. That makes sense.
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If video games are to be believed, if you have both options it's called a triple option. Usually the first one (stuff it in the back;s belly or keeps it) is called a read option.
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Edelman on a DB blitz almost gets to Young unblocked. He's close to consideration for a WR spot in my (very, very deep) IDP league purely for his stats on defense.
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The Broncos on defense has dared Rivers to find Brown one-on-one with Andre Goodman, and Brown just cannot get open.
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Fantastic touchdown run for Helu against the Seahawks.
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Watching this Bears/Raiders game makes me want to stab myself in the face.
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That was a special effort by the Raiders there, taking a time out after their own questionable sideline catch, allowing the Bears sideline all the time they wanted to review the tape. Outcome: successful challenge.
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What? Not a fan of the kicking game?
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I appreciate a defensive game as much as anybody (and I'm a Steeler fan), but this just seems like a product of two sloppy/bad offenses as much as anything. Janikowski is still a beast though.
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I feel like I've fallen into a mirror universe or something. Tebow is actually looking like a better QB than Rivers, and conversely, the Chargers are getting more out of their conventional offense in the running game than the Broncos are from their option. Life is strange today.
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Lechler punts the ball halfway to Chicago.
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One way to avoid punting to Hester.
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One way to avoid punting to Hester.
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Shane Lechler, Robo-Punter?
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Blatant PI on a deep pass to Decker missed by Triplettes crew. That hurts. Bromcos punt upcoming.
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SeaBass is having a monster fantasy day. Six FGs, many of them over 40 yards.
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Broncos in single high safety all day long. Rivers and Jackson used to eat that for for breakfast, right?
Det patchwork O-line of the Chargers are getting whipped in pass-pro. Miller and Dumervil teeing off.
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Why did the Bears just give up on the run all of a sudden?
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His name is mike martz
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Gould just nails his second 50+ yarder. A kicking exhibition in Oakland.
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...and then there's Washington, where a different kind of kicking is on exhibition. The kind that made me not pick Gano for my Loser League team because I figured they'd have a new kicker before the end of the season.
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A sensational grab by Eric Decker. Oliver ALL over him, he just cathes it anyway. for a 35-yard gain on 3rd and 11.
Tebow got fantastic protection, and stayed int the pocket on the play.
*Challenge. Ruh Roh.
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A Brian Hoyer sighting!
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And Belichick doesn't let him throw a pass. :(
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That's unpossible! The Patriots never pass up a chance to run up the score!
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The play stood as called.
Tebow in 4th quarter mode. I swear it's uncanny. 10-13 with the Broncos on the charger 10 yardline with second and eight. Flip to this game if you can!
2 minute warning.
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FG -> overtime.
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I would switch from Pats-Eagles if I could.
Serious question: why doesn't the local CBS affiliate switch over from the rout in Philly? It's not like I live in either market. I'm in Redskins territory (they're on Fox today).
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They did switch in Pittsburgh, and I'd have thought that the network would switch all "neutral" markets together.
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Johnny Knox: still fast
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Oh wow! Hanie to Knox for 81 yards on 3rd and 16 from his own 10. Then TD to Kellen Davis 2 plays later to somehow keep this game alive.
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A fantastically executed onside kick - as you would expect from a Bears special team unit. Unlucky not to recover.
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Going to overtime... This is unbearable... This season turned out so much more exciting than I thought.
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Triplette just said that both teams must have an opportunity to score in OT. Thats playoffs rules, right?
denver wins the toss, btw
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Triplette just said that both teams must have an opportunity to score in OT. Thats playoffs rules, right?
denver wins the toss, btw
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Yeah, I think that's playoffs only.
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It seems like a bad idea to call the timeout at 2:01. Aren't you giving them the option to throw that way? It seems like you only lose a second if you let the two-minute warning happen and then they'll be much more likely to run on their next play after the stoppage.
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In this game, the Bears might have been baiting the Raiders into throwing.
Still, the Raiders decline to take advantage, but for some reason throw on 3rd down.
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Chargers offense abillity to take delay of game penalties is baffling.
Broncos D all over the Chargers. Von Miller for MVP!
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Idiotic way for the game to end in Oakland. Hanie tries to run a fake spike, nobody gets open, so he goes ahead and spikes it. Intentional grounding, ten second runoff, game over.
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That's hilarious! Hee hee.
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You know you're not a good quarterback when:
You have a lot of time in the pocket and you overthrow your receiver so much that the announcer says you just threw it away.
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The Bears run a semi fake spike, where Hanie looks to see if the receivers are uncovered before clocking it. The refs decide it's grounding. Not sure I agree with that call.
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So spiking the ball mid play shouldn't be intentional?
That be nice if everyone started to do that. Just spike it on a sack and you have an incompletion.
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I could be wrong, but I believe the wording on intentional grounding specifies throwing away to avoid a sack. Hanie was not in danger of being sacked to my eyes, so it shouldn't have been grounding.
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but on the other hand, why would one throw the ball away when he's not under pressure?
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To stop the clock. Which is exactly the reason Hanie did it here. The pressure was closer than I thought at first.
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One of the Raiders' rushers comes free just before he spikes the ball. At that point, it's pretty much textbook grounding. Inside the tackle box, ball doesn't reach the line of scrimmage, and the quarterback is under pressure.
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I just saw a replay and you're right. Didn't see the pressure live.
It was almost a clever play.
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That's an obviously correct call and a horrible decision by Hanie. Either spike it or don't spike it. If you don't spike it, then you have to go ahead and continue with the play. If you hesitate and then spike it, by rule it is intentional grounding and, in that situation, a ten second runoff.
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I don't know if this one can be blamed on Hanie. It looked like that was how the play was designed.
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You can only take one step back from centre before a spike for it to be legal.
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I have never heard that before.
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Neither has Hanie, apparently. I knew right away that was a penalty and the game was over due to the runoff.
I am sure that is not how the play was designed. Hanie was just improvising there. Oh well, they obviously needed a miracle at that point to win anyway.
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Desperately trying to jinx here.
When the Chargers win I think it'll seem lucky to most spectators - I think the Broncos will have the best VOA, here.
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heh. Denver blocks the kick. Too bad they called timeout before the kick.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Desperately trying to jinx here.
When the Chargers win I think it'll seem lucky to most spectators - I think the Broncos will have the best VOA, here.
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HAHA! Icing FAIL in San Diego!
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Broncos block the FG...but no, they called a timeout just before the attempt!
I hate Mike Shanahan.
Broncos bailed out when second attempt comes up short.
Really, Broncos. If you're going to fire Shanahan, shouldn't you stop using his ideas?
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Apparently Jesus likes really ugly football. Roseanne ugly.
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You got to be one delusional, pretentious prick to think jesus influences your football games.
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He might...who knows? Maybe he's got nothing better to do. Also, we don't really know the extent of his powers.
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To be fair to Timmy, he might talk about Jesus a lot but I've never heard him claim that jesus is helping him win, just that he was blessed by him, which isn't that bad and this is coming from an athiest.
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Apparently Jesus likes really ugly football. Roseanne ugly.
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2-minute warning in overtime. Christ this is big - can barely watch.
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Run by McGahee, Broncos in for an easy FG... damnit.
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So should Norv try to ice this one?
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Well, Norv is the one who is going to be iced for sure now.
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Yes he is, a few years ago SD was the golden franchise, lots of young talent, solid front office and now they aren't. Norvtastic.
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John Fox seems annoyed that Norv actually managed to ice the kicker without screwing it up.
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How do you figure that? Broncos made the kick and won.
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Because Fox looked angry and was shouting just after it happened.
Please calm down.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Please calm down?
Did I say something that wasn't calm?
I was challenging your claim that Norv managed to "ice the kicker." He called a timeout, that's for sure. But it didn't appear to bother the kicker at all.
Sorry if you figure that's not "calm."
Maybe next time you'll read my comments in a calmer state of mind and not misread me so terribly.
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I think he was suggesting Fox calm down.
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He called the timeout, that's what I would regard as icing. You seem to be arguing with everyone, it's great that you have things to say but could you be slightly less belligerent about it?
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I don't think you helped, Karl.
Do you often get a positive response to "Please calm down"? From my point-of-view, that's a fairly inflammatory thing to say to somebody, especially when it's written in response to something relatively innocuous.
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This sounds like a dialogue segment from the long-running series "Conversations with my wife..." Can we agree that this thread has reached a place where FO need not go?
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Norv Turner ices the kicker with one second on the playclock. Genius.
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ToverTime! (patent pending)
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I can't believe that no one has questioned whether the timeout to ice the kicker was a good one by the Broncos. If he misses you have over 2 minutes and good field position. Wouldn't the timeout be better served to possibly win the game on offense as opposed to icing a 53 yard field goal?
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
There are many reasons why wasting a timeout to ice the kicker are a bad idea. The fact that it's been shown to be of negligible benefit, at best, is one. What you bring up is another.
I think what a coach should want to do is make the presence or absence of a icing timeout unpredictable. Right now, with some coaches the timeout is entirely predictable. Shanahan will call the timeout every time. I think there would be benefit to having the kicking team think a timeout is coming, only to let them kick away. After all, after a timeout, there is zero possibility of icing the kicker on the second attempt, so that's one less thing for the kicker to worry about.
But yeah, on the whole, a timeout is far too valuable to be wasted on silly mindgames when there's a good amount of time on the clock.
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I actually thought something similar but from the other perspective when Denver kicked the winning field goal with a chunk of time left. Wouldn't it be better to take the time down as far as you can before kicking, so that if the worst happens and you miss you're still basically guaranteed the tie as the Chargers won't have time to take advantage?
(And yes, I realise that's probably a very European perspective, where ties are a consistent and accepted result for our sports. In the NFL, it seems they're treated disdainfully by all parties and considered a wholly unsatisfactory outcome. Still, it's better than a loss.)
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Well, it was sudden-death overtime.
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Yes, it was. Which is why, if you miss, you don't want the other team to have the chance to score.
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Thats what you get paid when you stay late in Leeds.
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This Sunday game is really turning into a comedy of errors.
Palko really is not a good QB.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
This feels like last week's Chiefs game against the Pats, where they a showed a lot of spirit on defence early on, but were ultimately ground down by the abysmal play of their QB.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
They are collapsing faster this week.
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Palko needs to be pulled now, for his own sake
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Or for our sake.
Al Michaels points out that it's not like the Chiefs have anybody else who could play the position. Then he makes a reference to Len Dawson, who retired, what, 40 years ago?
Wondered to myself if he couldn't think of a more recent QB that more viewers would be familiar with - Trent Green? Rich Gannon? Perhaps Joe Montana?
The Chiefs don't exactly have a rich history for QB play.
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Steelers tried a fade on 3rd and goal. A defender covering another receive slams into the target with the ball in flight and clearly prevents him from getting to the ball. What's the rationale for that not being DPI?
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The rationale is that PIT was intentionally running that defender into the other defender with a crossing pattern pick. It wasn't clean though so everyone just smashed together. They tend to cut the D-backs slack in that case.
The offensive player initiated the contact, in a lot of ways it was like a charge in basketball.
I think according to the letter of that the law that gets called, but you never see it actually called and that is a good thing.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
So Ed Hochuli and his crew seem determined to not allow anybody to play defence
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
There have been a lot of penalties for both teams on both sides of the ball
They may be calling it tight, but the players seem a bit unsettled as well.
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So there is Bruce Arians contender for weekly 'burn this play'.
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It's a shame the Eagles lost on that missed facemask call. {eyeroll}
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(chortle)
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Tyler Palko is like Tim Tebow, except he's smaller and not a good runner.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Oh great. Costas is going after Stevie Johnson just like everybody else in the media. Apparently we're all supposed to think that the great field position for the Jets' last TD drive of the first half had more to do with the 15-yard penalty than with the fact that the kickoff went less than 10 yard downfield!!
I'm really starting to despise the sanctimonious attitudes of our sports media, especially as it seems to focus far more heavily on black athletes than on whites.
Can any of these clowns do even a tiny bit of research? Blaming Johnson for the field position of the Jets is positively idiotic!
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Sanctimony aside, if doing TWO different TD dances on the same score isn't excssive, what is? And the penalty put the kicker in a bad spot, and probably caused him to try too hard to get them out of a jam.
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The penalty caused the missed kickoff?
That's a bit of a stretch.
I really think that there's a journalistic obligation to mention just how bad the kickoff was. But Costas and other media types just sweep that under the rug and blame the bad field position on Stevie Johnson.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
If the Bills are kicking off from the 35, the kicker doesn't try to squib the ball down the middle of the field. If he doesn't try to squib the ball, he doesn't hit the upback.
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You're contending that the kicker intentionally squibbed the ball?
I think nobody else is arguing that.
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Harvey Araton of the NY Times is.
"When Dave Rayner botched the ensuing squib kickoff from the Buffalo 20..."
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You calling anybody 'sanctimonious' is really the funniest thing I've read all day.
Now write 'ad hominem' or 'strawman' or something. That never gets old.
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Non-responsive.
So you post here solely to insult me?
Wow.
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Huh?
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At least Stevie Johnson's celebration was funny, creative and original. Why can't Costas go after all these receivers who immediately motion for a flag or look around for the flag every time they don't catch a ball. Or in the Pittsburgh case, immediately try to set an illegal pick, initiate the contact and then throw a pretend flag on a ball that wasn't particularly well thrown anyways. To me, the begging for flags is much less tolerable to watch than celebrating scores.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
Here here. I find the constant flag begging, and general cheating (pretending you had a catch you didn't et cetera) A LOT more annoying than some celebration that half the time is somewhat entertaining.
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RickD- I agree with you here, though I don't think there is a racial element.
Costas is a piece of garbage. Talking about "the decline of morals". His whole piece is based on a silly (and common lie).
If you read some history you will learn that 50+ year olds have been spinning that thread since Republican Rome.
If records existed prior to that I am sure you would find out that cave men sat around saying "In my day children were respectful and moral".
Back in the real world society becomes more and more moral each generation. Less violence, less corruption, smarter kids. But it is a lot easier to attack things you don't understand or are not comfortable with than it is to actually learn about the world.
Next thing you know he will be telling us he somehow walked uphill both ways to school.
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Yeah, I really was hesitant to bring up race, since race is brought up far too often as a possible factor when other factors are equally likely to be causes.
It bothers me to see Costas adopt a "kids today are bad!" approach to his job. I used to hold the guy in fairly high esteem.
I just don't understand how so many people can take this angle on the story and run with it without thinking about how long the kickoff was. I suspect that somebody, somewhere who knew how long the kickoff was decided to blame Johnson anyway, but that a lot of people who have jumped on the bandwagon just saw the damning video of Johnson and went with the easy explanation. Somebody at ESPN.com wasted little time putting together a hit piece.
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The issues are completely orthogonal. Costas' essay may have been sanctimonious and trite. It came across to me much like those human interest stories every local news team loves so much. But let's not pick on irrelevant points. Costas made the claim that increasing self-congratulation and excessive celebration are bad both by detracting from the game by making it less enjoyable to watch and by harming the celebrant's team through penalties, a position with which I sympathize. Stevie Johnson was one recent example of the latter. Bad kick or not, the penalty yardage is a detriment to his team, right? The claim that the focus was more heavy on black athletes than white ones is completely unsupported by the statements he made. He spoke out against show boating and didn't make any statements that would lead me to believe he considers it more acceptable for a white athlete to showboat.
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Didn't they get rid of the 5 yard running into the kicker way back when they removed the 5 yard facemask?
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Hochuli makes up his own rules
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I know I've seen the 5 yarder "running into the kicker" penalty called at least twice this season. I don't recall hearing it ever being removed, nor any discussion of potentially doing so. The justification for getting rid of the incidental 5-yard facemask was so refs didn't have a judgement call to make in a split second. Running into the kicker and roughing the kicker are considerably more clear.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
So the game ends when Tyler Palko throws the ball to Dwayne Bowe, who is
(a) not in the end zone
(b) surrounded by five Steelers
One of the five picks it off.
Apparently this is Dwayne Bowe's fault. According to Collinsworth. Bowe should have fought off five defenders to get a ball that was five feet away and somehow eluded all five of them to score the winning TD.
I suspect that if Mike Vick had thrown that pass to, oh, to pick a receiver at random, Brent Celek, when he was covered by five guys, the announcers would have found a way to blame the QB.
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It wasn't all his fault, but not at least trying to get a hand on the ball was puzzling. Plus, Palko seemed to think it was the wrong route (should've been going deep on a corner or go). Can't tell on that last point without hearing from the Chefs, of course.
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We don't know what Palko was upset about. Well, except that Collinsworth knew what he was upset about without talking to the guy. Collinsworth knew that Palko was upset about exactly the same thing Collinsworth was upset about!
If that's the case, Palko has to long into the mirror.
Yes, I think Bowe could have done something differently that looked more like going for the ball. Well, at least that's what it seems like in replay, but replays can be deceptive with regard to physical properties like speed and momentum. But I still saw possibly the worst pass of the season (thrown into quintuple coverage!!) being thrown by a QB in the midst of the worst QB outing of the season.
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
I don't think racism has anything to do with it at all honestly. You are just trolling. Can you ever go a week without making a silly troll thread or two?
During the broadcast they were at first all over Palko. OMG racism against whites!
Then they noticed what I noticed, that Bowe didn't even make a cursory attempt at the ball. After that there was a clear change in attitude.
I thought it was completely justified, making an attempt on that ball is exactly what he is paid to do. I thought he was supposed to be one of the new elite receivers? Seemed really soft to me.
Not to mention the fact that people cannot even light him up anymore because the rules have become so defense phobic.
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Meh.
I'm tired of bad QBing being excused by broadcasters.
This week's incident(s) remind me too much of a similar play a couple weeks ago when Philip Rivers threw a pick and Vincent Jackson was blamed.
Sometimes, the pick is the QB's fault!
You may disagree with my opinion (and you're certainly free to do so) but you should know that I'm not "trolling", at least not as I understand the word.
I see bad media coverage and I think that's worth discussing. My understanding of the word "trolling" is that it happens when a person throws out inflammatory words and arguments solely for the joy of seeing negative reactions.
That's not what I'm doing.
And the next time I see a white WR blamed in the same way black WRs are blamed as a matter of course will be the first time I see such a thing.
And yes, Stevie Johnson is an idiot. That doesn't mean Costas should ignore how long the kickoff was in his anti-Stevie Johnson diatribe.
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Well the announcers definitely slurp all over white players a lot more than the black ones, I will give you that. I just don't see that as being the case here.
I think the reaction is the same if that is Jordy Nelson. It is possible I am wrong about that.
The racism does work both ways FWIW :)
I heard two prominent NFL analysts going on and on about how Jordy Nelson is so small and shifty and how that opens up the field for him in ways it isn't open for Jennings et cetera. They compared him to Wes Welker repeatedly (I kid you not). Wes Welker is 6" shorter and 35 pounds lighter than Jordy Nelson!
Nelson isn't small or shifty, he is a big tall white dude who is fast, but in the NFL white guys work hard and are small and shifty, we won't let the facts get in the way of our narrative.
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The throw was off. Bowe might have jumped, then kept his hands down because he suddenly thought it must be for another receiver. In playing football and basketball, I've found stuff like this happens all the time. A pass is off and so the receiver, thinking it's for somebody else, lets it sail by. This seems especially likely since it appeared to be a broken route.
This may sound far-fetched, but I feel it's no more far-fetched than a wide receiver just deciding not to reach for a football.
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Considering that Dwight Howard would have had no chance of even tipping the ball from where Bowe was at that is the most logical explanation there is.
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I agree, Joshua, this had nothing to do with racism. In fact, the two positive examples Costas gave of TD reactions were of black players (Homer Jones and Barry Sanders). And Sanders was explicitly compared favorably to a white guy (Gastineau) who was described as "uncool".
An Open Letter to NFL Defensive Backs
DBs, you're going to get called for unnecessary roughness on every deep pass play. It does not matter whether the receiver catches the ball, drops the ball, sees you coming and prepares for the hit, tries a juke, or even if you back off before you make contact. Tackling hurts, and it's no longer permitted to lay the wood on QBs or receivers.
This is only a mild exaggeration, but really, you're going to get penalized, so you might as well give up and go back to the bone-crushing hits that made the NFL so popular. Just change from the Superfly high-body shots to mid-body. A couple of well-timed rib shots will eliminate the deep threat later in the game, because there won't be any receivers to throw to.
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